https://feddit.org/post/12851368
https://feddit.org/post/12529640
due to the previously communicated defamation campaign by quokk.au, which was later followed by defederation by them after we requested them to remove their censure, we have now defederated from quokk.au.
One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.
We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.
If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations.
Comments for this post are disabled, as we don’t expect any constructive discourse here, and we don’t want to create another comment section for terrorism advocates, genocide deniers, holocaust trivializers etc. There are already plenty other posts where discussion can take place.
Not sure how to feel about this.
Every time I feel like feddit.org is going into the right direction, shit like this pops up. Marvellous.
It’s an unbelievably stupid decision imo. Talk about tone deaf.
Just FYI: There are laws in DE concerning Holocaust denial, relativism etc. The subject is tricky to say the least. I understand the feddit.org mods don’t want to find themselves in court because some edgelords went on a rampage. They are already cursed enough moderating ich_iel ;)
Personally, I feel the whole discussion regarding Israel/Gaza is extremely difficult in Germany, even at my Stammtisch. The underlying reason is obviously found in our history, though the consequences of that history are misunderstood. Never again means never again, I don’t care who commits the atrocities.
Should Lemmy.world apply the same standards as they are hosted at Hetzner?
Honestly, I wouldn’t know. Not a lawyer in international internet affairs :) Interesting question though.
That was the question raised by people when feddit.org came up with that policy. A lot of Lemmy instances are hosted at Hetzner, but feddit.org is the only one this policy.
politics is starting to become problematic, they used similar message in why they “removed or banned comment”
I feel badly about it. Zionists are fascists, and the Nakba is like the Holocaust. People should be able to say that. They should also be able to say Hamas is not conducting a genocide (because they don’t have enough guns to do what they want). I don’t support terrorism but I do think we should be conducting targeted strikes against IDF military assets without involving civilians, and I think the terrorism advocacy is mostly coming from Zionists.
the Nakba is like the Holocaust
lol
by the way i think that’s regarded as anti-semitic and holocaust denial, both of which is illegal in many countries
you can see why defederation is the least one should do
Semite means middle eastern person. You shouldn’t deny the genocide being done against semites, it’s antisemitic.
are you one of those sovereign citizens that has their own fantasy world full of their own definitions
that would explain your comedic genius
and your antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
Semitic people or Semites is a term for an ethnic, cultural or racial group[2][3][4][5] associated with people of the Middle East, including Arabs, Jews, Akkadians, and Phoenicians.
so not denying being antisemitic
good for you
Maybe you wouldn’t think protesting against genocide is antisemitic, if you didn’t think Judaism is a genocidal religion. You should try thinking of it that way and see what happens.
The way it’s worded, it makes it sound that anyone opposed to their POV is one of “terrorism advocates, genocide deniers, holocaust trivializers etc.” I’m hoping it’s just unfortunate wording.
Israel is a terrorist state and those mods defend that
They are not here to have a discussion
They are just following orders
Their MO has been throughly exposed
A discerning shit poster should take note and avoid their communities, that’s how federation works. When they bully noobs, educate them on the fedi lore 🐸
Which side said this?
Last paragraph of the first link in body
Authoritarians can’t handle being called out, make it harder to be called out.
Genocide is perfectly rational and normal, calling it out is a bad idea. No tought crime allowed when the government is aiding the moral and just murders.
These reactions are very German of them… I am sure it all makes sense within German speaking community but from outside perspective these people are literally Nazi 2.0: the Israeli boogaloo
we gonna make it right with the jews by helping them do a shoah against people they dont see as humans. The law says we have to do it so it is right and proper
🤡
due to the previously communicated defamation campaign by quokk.au, which was later followed by defederation by them after we requested them to remove their censure, we have now defederated from quokk.au.
I think it’s reasonable and should be considered the default approach to defederate instances that have defederated with you. I’m not trying to sound like I’m supporting
allegedlyZionist admins(and I’m only saying allegedly because I haven’t read the full context yet). I would suggest changing the title to say that quokk.au defederated over the Zionism rather than feddit defederated over it if quokk.au was the first to defederate of the pair.One sided federation causing strange issues that may be confusing to users.
Also fuck Zionists and Nazis in case this sounds too defensive.
Edit: while I understand feddit admins’ position and not wanting to get into legal trouble, that doesn’t magically absolve them of the term Zionist. I think it’s fair to call it Zionism. The legal scenario they’re concerned about, if it happened, would be Zionist.
feddit.org defederated quokk.au for calling their mods zionists
one of quokk.au’s admins called a feddit’s admin “absolute trash human being” and “nazi cunt”. That seems to be the reason.
Apparently they felt so upset for being banned from feddit that they defederated their instance (quokk.au) from feddit.org altogether. Now feddit.org defederated back.
Honestly that admin just seems insulting and toxic. I’m glad that kind of stuff has no place on my instance.
Trump been compared to hitler and people insult people defending the terrible person Trump is. Nobody righfully complain about, but when someone insult someone defending a genocide people like you start to appear
at no point did the feddit admins defend genocide.
What does it mean to censor the movement to sanction a genocidal state?
Sure the admin may be unhinged, but removing a post about making a distinction between anti-zionism and anti-semitism?
I got some translation from their post on it about how they can’t tolerate “accusations” of being called zionists? What’s wrong with accusations? Removing the comment is sufficient evidence for it.
Also there’s something there about such discussions being precarious because it’s against some german,swiss laws? Can someone who knows german explain it a little better? Because it seems like “We will not discuss this because we don’t like this discussion”
Germany has laws against minimising the atrocities of the holocaust. The feddit.org admins have a personal opinion that likening the nakba to the holocaust minimises the holocaust, which would make it illegal.
Israel use same methods as nazis and the holocust. Banning comparison minimize the genocide is gaza
Is advocating for palestinians right to resistance, condemning the ideology that created the whole conflicts, banning our only real option of boycott a minimization of the holocust?
removing a post about making a distinction between anti-zionism and anti-semitism?
They don’t remove posts or comments that do that. I am quite active on feddit and the general consensus on that instance is pretty pro-palestine. The vast majority of anti-zionist posts do not get removed.
What they (sometimes) remove though is comparions between nazi-germany and Zionism. The admins on that instance argued that doing this may breach German laws, so they decided to remove some of the most notorious comments about that.
I got some translation from their post on it about how they can’t tolerate “accusations” of being called zionists? What’s wrong with accusations? Removing the comment is sufficient evidence for it.
They removed posts because they fear they may violate german law. Also, feddit admins did not defederate from quokk.au because of the accusations - it is because one of their admins harrassed a feddit admin (calling them Nazi scum, wished death upon them - see my above comment) - then defederated quokk.au from feddit because of “Zionism” (which is so dumb if you ask me) - and then feddit defederated quokk.au back
Also there’s something there about such discussions being precarious because it’s against some german,swiss laws?
Holocaust denial/inversion/relativization is something (for good reason) illegal in Germany. Neonazis have been doing this for a long time and obviously it needs to be illegal. When it comes to Israel’s war crimes obviously there is more nuance to this but there are boundaries too. As a german leftist I can say that a lot of us are more careful when it comes to language around the issue. There is a balancing act we have to do and I wish people outside could respect that.
Because it seems like “We will not discuss this because we don’t like this discussion”
In all honesty, this is how I feel about it. I am pro-palestine in pretty much every regard, but I have limits with the language I use. I recognize Zionism as the result of the jewish struggle of the 19th and 20th century. It does not mean I like it or I see it as an ideology that can bring about peace in the region. It also does not mean I justify any of the crimes Israel’s government is doing. But it does mean that I don’t compare it to Nazism. I don’t like this discussion because it leads nowhere. Invalidating/inverting/relativizing the jewish struggle does nothing for the Palestinians and I feel annoyed that so many internet leftists insist so much on doing that. If there is no space for nuance, I am not interested in discussion
Should Lemmy.world apply the same standards as they are hosted at Hetzner?
I am too much of an anarchist to care about laws, but I believe any instance should moderate against hatred and strive for a healthy environment where constructive discourse is encouraged and unconstructive/toxic discourse is mitigated. That counts for racism, homophobia, and also for antisemitism or dehumanization of Palestinians.
Now, there are difficult questions about moderation that I am glad I don’t have to answer. But I can confidently say that the language that quokk.au admin used has no place in a healthy online community and it is fair it’s banned from it.
Doesn’t really answer my question.
If there is a legal obligation in Germany to have a policy similar to what feddit.org has, Lemmy.world and other instances using Hetzner should implement it.
If not, then they shouldn’t, and then feddit.org shouldn’t use the legal argument.
Now it’s kind of an ambiguous situation where it’s not clear what the legal obligation actually is.
Removed by mod
The ban is completely justified but I think for a different reason. The comment is advocating for a forced one state solution with a Palestinian majority. This is antisemitic and the only people who want this ending hate Jews.
Multiculturalism for thee but not for me 🤡
Are you hitting me with the “Jews push multi culturalism around the world but not in Isreal” meme that literal nazis use?
There are plenty of non multi cultural places and I dont think thats a reason for them to be destroyed. Secondly i dont think isreal or Jews push multi culturalism on the rest of the world.
I am hitting you with: Us and EU regimes been shilling multiculturalism as a good thing for everyone except for Israel, they deserve an ethno state
You made an asinine claim that there can’t be a Multicultural one state solution which is foundational to the current genocide rhetoric
No youre not. You said multiculturalism for thee but not for “me” the me being isreal. The EU and US have no relevancy unless youre trying to suggest they’re controlled by isreal.
Israel is old fiction and needs to be removed from the map. I don’t see the problem with restoring East Palestine and kicking out Zionist scum.
What do you think defines borders?
When zionists ever respectes any borders?
You realize you’re being antisemitic by equating Zionists with Jews, right?
Most Jews are not zionists. And most Zionists are Christian.
