I kinda miss a few opinions on the topic of “screw taste” here. 🥲
old version:
I like torx
Torx is definitely the best, it holds the screwdriver the best and a torx screwdriver also works to remove other screws with stripped heads
Look at any comparison that includes robertson and it wins every time, and if the reviewer is american they’re surprised every time. Canadian fastener aisles are 95% robertson 2% torx and 3% hex because lag bolts and such. Only screws included in other hardware are anything other than those
I’m naively assuming that the most relevant features are surface area, corner angle, and taper, is that right? And what I want in a drive is obviously that it won’t strip, but also that it won’t cam out/slip. Supposedly camming out is a “feature” to prevent something or other, but I exclusively use hand tools so it’s mostly just an annoyance really. What I don’t know is, how do those 3 features affect strippage and slippage? What makes Robertson better at that?
The surface area of engagement on robertson is one of, if not the highest. The bit will bind on the the tapered sides before it touches the bottom of the hole in the screw, so you always get full engagement and 0 rotational slop (provided your bit and screw are actually in line with each other.) Torx more often than not has some rotational slop between the two, and phillips almost always does. Another nice thing about robertson specifically for hand tools is the sizes have standardized colour coding, so you grab the green handled screwdriver for #1, red for #2 and black for #3. It’s only brands that care more about the looks of their products than usability that don’t have at least a coloured ring on the handle of their drivers. I’m pretty sure torx has colour coding, but it’s nowhere near as common, especially seeing as there are so many sizes.
Well I’m definitely sold, that sounds awesome!
Me too
It’s a good one but I read in the voice of “I like turtles”.
May i recommend: torx plus
Hex is amazing, actually. Perfect for mechanical systems that need precision adjustments and/or precision tightening torque. The driver grips solid and is really hard to accidentally strip.
Slotted / flat head is a joke and I can’t take you seriously if you claim it deserves a top spot in any ranking.
Phillips is great for layman end user applications that need protection from over-torque, as it’s designed to reject a driver when torqued out. But it’s the wrong head to use in like 90% of the places you encounter it.
Yes, screw Philips, all Philips heads should be turned into Torx heads. And slotted heads can go straight into the bin.
Slotted are sometimes the only option, when working in small scales, like M1 and M1.2 because there is so little material in the head of the screw On larger scales, I totally agree
M1 works just fine with Hexalob T4 though.
Okay, I never encounter them through my work as an optician. I guess slotted are just cheaper then.
It could be a similar issue as with electricians and electrical contacts: in principle there are far better alternatives to slotted, but because literally every electrician has a number of slotted screwdrivers anyway, slotted is cheap and changing the screw type for a product like a circuit breaker is just a huge hassle for everyone involved nobody bothers.
Edit: actually for circuit breakers the combo of slotted and pozidrive is becomming more common recently. i guess that doesn’t work for small screws though.
My only issue with hex is that the angles between the sides are too flat and easy to round off, especially if the screw is small or cheaply made (soft steel or aluminium). Speaking from experience, if the screw head is 3mm across or smaller, Torx or JIS (which is still better than Phillips) are more reliable.
Hex could have been great, but along came the Americans with their units, and since hex was in mm, then they had to make their own hex in fractions of inches. I’m involved in archery, where you meet both without warning. Almost as annoying as having ISO, UNC and UNF threads.
I see, you decided to pick 2 pieces of shit.
Phillips proceeds to strip when I look at it badly.
Slotted keeps kicking out the screwdriver.Robertson is the top. It holds onto the screwdriver even without magnet, and good luck stripping a square.
Phillips usually strip when using a pozidrive screw driver on them. Very common mistake because people think they are the sams, but easy to avoid once you know it.
Also, the fit has to be tight. If it’s loose, the screw driver is too small.
Posidrive is not that common and not the problem. Phillips heads strip because they’re designed to cam out and prevent snapping heads or overtorquing. JIS is same cross shape but doesnt cam out, which is good for avoiding stripping the heads but makes it easier to snap the head off of screws
Maybe in the US, but Pozidrive is very common here in Germany and other european countries in the form of “Spax” screws. They are the main screws we get for everything from wood working to wall mounts for pictures. They also don’t strip as easily as philips screws.
And trust me, I have seen plenty of philips screws beeing stripped ue to the use of pozi screw drivers while beeing perfectly okay when beeing removed with a philips screwdriver. Of course there are other reasons they strip as you mentioned, but here in Germany its a huge problem because Pozidrive is so common and people dont know the difference.
The reason for the stripping , that the shape of the tip is different.
Source: pbswisstools.com
Phillips heads are not designed to cam out. They were designed to not cam out. Common myth that keeps getting repeated, to explain their poor performance.
(This information is incorrect, see the reply below.)
Pozidriv drivers actually work very well on Philips screws, sometimes better than Philips drivers, due to the fact that the “vanes” are angled rather than curved, proving a larger contact area. Fit is definitely the larger factor, along with the quality of the screw metal.They’re both junk next to Robertson though.
I beg to differ. It’s the other way around. Using a pozidriv screwdriver on a philips screw almost guarantwes that you will strip the head when tightening.
Tip: In case of doubt, use a Phillips screwdriver. While they do not perfectly fit into the Pozidriv screws, one can at least insert the correct size. The use of Pozidriv screwdrivers in Phillips screws works only with screwdrivers that are too small and easily leads to damage of the screw or the tool.
You can find a pretty good explanation here or here
More sources: Mechanics on Stackoverflow
Whoops, you’re right, I had my memory of the geometries mixed up.
There is this interesting video that suggests that JIS drivers (a Japanese standard) work pretty well for all cruciform heads.
No, no they don’t. You mix up Philips and JIS, you WILL have a bad day.
Source: I’m an old toolmaker that has made some nice pocket change over the years drilling out stripped out JIS screws on motorcycle engines from owners that didn’t know the difference. A decent amount from repeat customers too…
stripped out JIS screws
Oh, I absolutely believe that a Philips driver would ruin just about any other type of screw, but I don’t think that’s what the video talks about—they suggest using JIS drivers with Philips screws. Have you also seen problems with that combination?
When I was a toolmaker, a large part of my day was often spent removing stripped fasteners that others had messed up. And yes, I have seen that done, JIS used in place of Philips. They do equal damage, equally as well, and equally as easily.
The largest problem with ANY fastener system is that users are too stupid, lazy, and cheap to:
- Buy quality fasteners. Cheap, Cheerful Chinese fasteners can often come pre-damaged and are cheese soft, saving so much time. Properly made, more expensive fasteners will seldom cause you a problem. (And yes, the Chinese do make quality items. YOU just won’t pay for them)
- Buy quality tools and be sure they fit your fasteners correctly. The dollar store ain’t selling quality anything, anywhere, in that store.
- Inspect your tools for wear and damage. They are consumables. Toss them when damaged or worn out.
- Use the right tool for the job. If you don’t have the right tool, go buy it. Don’t try and fudge it.
Maybe. The opposite isn’t really true in my experience. Pozi drivers work well enough on JIS heads but Philips drivers slip way too easily. The bad thing is that JIS looks like Phillips heads which probably is part of the reason for Phillips rep of slipping out.
Philips is designed to allow the screwdriver to slip out so you don’t over-torque the screw. If you’re stripping them, you’re probably using too much torque. But, it might not be your fault, because a lot of people use Philips screws when they shouldn’t, and use too much torque when screwing them in.
As for slotted, those just suck. I guess one benefit is that you can use an over-sized head on small screws. But, slotted is really the wrong choice almost every time.
Philips is designed to allow the screwdriver to slip out
That’s a myth. I’ve read the entire patent and there is no mention of it, and later patents are just post-hoc justifications for an objectively faulty, inferior design.
My charitable hypothesis is that the design uses shallower angles that are easier to cam out because sharp angles would result in stress fractures during the cold forming of the screw heads. My realistic hypothesis is that dies with shallow angles are cheaper to produce and more durable. But the point is moot: the Phillips didn’t become the de facto standard because of any practical advantage (real or perceived), but because Robertson wasn’t willing to sell exclusive rights to Ford.
I’m usually not one to criticise a person’s life choices, but if you think Phillips is better than the popular alternatives, I immediately think less of you as a person.
People are brainwashed by phillips corporate propaganda to believe phillips is a good screw head.
Ok, it’s more accurate to say that the fact that the screw will cam out is something that was key to its adoption, even if it wasn’t designed to happen.
Quoting “One Good Turn - A natural history of the screwdriver and the screw” by Witold Rybczynski:
Paradoxically, this very quality is what attracted automobile manufacturers to the Phillips screw. The point of an automated driver turning the screw with increasing force popped out of the recess when the screw was fully set, preventing overscrewing. Thus, a certain degree of cam-out was incorporated into the design from the beginning. However, what worked on the assembly line has bedevilled handymen ever since.
https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/were-phillips-screwdrivers-designed-to-cam-out/57870/9
Hey, Robertsons are great ok
Reliable, color-coded, and Canadian!
Like my Sunday through Monday undies.
What kind of maniac has one of those in his pockets at all times?
It’s canadian, eh. Just don’t mind the maple syrup we also keep in there, along side, loose
That’s Canadian Loc-Tite, eh?
Same price too
You know it
They’re the best in my opinion. They hold on the tip of the screwdriver, they’re real hard to distort, and they’re Canadian.
Is Robertson the same as square head? It looks like Robertson has a slight taper?
Pocket hole screws are typically square and I find them inferior to torx.
I’ve only ever heard of the square as robertson, but you’re right, they appear to be distinct driver bits
Phillips strips because it was designed to. Literally. And I fucking hate it.
Slotted is a bitch unless you have the motor skills of a neurosurgeon.
All tamper screws are offensive to me on a religious/spiritual level.
It wasn’t designed to strip when overtorqued. It’s a myth with no evidence. The original patent says nothing about it (I’ve read the whole patent), and later patents list it as post-hoc justification for a design fault.
Really? We were actually taught this in college but come to think of it I never did read the fucking patent.
Look, what’s important is we all seamlessly transition to Robertson screws….
(Honestly I’m convinced it’s just spite for Canada that we haven’t already)
Add it to the list of reasons to hate Henry Ford. When he needed a new screw standard to replace slotted screws in his factories, he went to Robertson first, but he wasn’t willing to sell production rights to Ford. His second choice, Phillips, took the offer. Phillips and similar cruciform screw heads (Pozidriv and JIS, both of which are superior to Phillips) proliferated globally because of this, and it would take a massive shift in the industry today to fully transition to Robertson or Torx.
you take that back about the square drive and pin that shit on the phillips head
context: the square drive was designed as a universal open standard for affixing things to other things. the phillips head was designed as a cheap alternative to torque wrenches
Designed as? No, it was a happy accident. The original patent mentioned nothing about it, and then when they realized they could make that claim the patent was updated.
Fuck phillip head everything.
Square bit as the go-to general purpose bit is the correct opinion. Every time I have to pull my square bit off to put a Philips on I am just disappointed.
Fyi Robertson(square) and slotted are the “tasty” screws.
Philips is a corporate design built to strip.
Your mum is built to strip
Now I wanna see op’s mom.
Square and Robertson are 2 different types. The Robertson screws have a slight taper to the socket you can see if you look. Square drive screws are NOT tapered.
There are also 2 different types of common cross slotted screws. One is Philips that is actually meant to be a ‘one and done’ install. It was meant to cam out to prevent over torquing when assembling something back in the day. Don’t blame the screwhead for your poor choice in application or you cheaping out on the driver to install them because you bought some crappy dollar store driver.
And then there the VERY similar looking JIS, (Japanese Industrial Standard) screws that require their own special driver. If you get Philips and JIS screws mixed up, you WILL have a very bad day…
My favorite flavor is the hex socket head screws. A nearly complete set of wrenches will fit in you pocket. Either fold up or ball end L style.
The real propaganda is labelling Robertson square.
The only reason Robertson isn’t everywhere is that it was patented and Robertson refused to license it, insisting that his company would be the only one to manufacture it.
Because of that, Henry Ford used those screws on the Canadian-made Model T cars, but not on the American made ones. The patent didn’t expire until 1964, so many other screw types that weren’t patented became popular in the mean time. But, the patent has now been expired for 60 years, so I think it’s ok to just call it “square” now.
We aren’t calling it a Robertson to honor a dead patent, it’s to show we know the origin as Canadian, and because that’s the name of the thing. Living next to the cultural blackhole of the USA means getting swallowed and erased if we don’t showcase and have pride in what is Canadian. So at least where Canadians are concerned it’s not a square.
“Robertson” is confusing, “square” is straightforward. This Canadian thinks the name Robertson should be forgotten.
It’s not square, it’s ROBERTSON!!! A gift from Canadians to the world, and everyone else decides that, no. Easily strippable screw heads are better…
Phillips and slotted should be illegal. Torx is far superior in every way.
Torx is the vastly superior option and Robertson drive are also really good
I’d argue that Robertson is actually superior to Torx, since the “vanes” of the Torx head are more prone to stripping than the solid right angles.
I think hex is superior to both as it’s way harder to strip than a torx and it has 50% more options for starting angle than a robertson, which comes in handy when you can only get at the bolt head from a right angle, while being almost nearly as grippy and strip-resistant. Plus it’s presumably simpler to machine than a torx star.
The biggest problem I have with hex drives is that there are far too many sizes, (in multiple systems!) meaning you have to carry dozens of bits, and using a size that’s just a little too small creates a huge strip risk.
Robertson and Torx both use a comparatively limited number of sizes, which makes the logistics way easier.
Even just counting metric there are far too many sizes of hex bits. Adding inch sizes further complicates things, and as you say, the similarly of some of them to their metric counterparts isn’t helping; is 5/32 close enough to 4mm to not break things? Who knows!
With that said, torx is really no picnic either. T6, 8, 10, 15, 20, 25, 27, 30, and 40 all seem to be in relatively common use, and I’m not sure they all need to be. Not to mention the (relatively common) security variants of at least the 10 through 40.
I think #1 - #4 square are the only ones I’ve ever seen in the wild, though I’m informed security versions of at least #2 - #4 exist too.
Yeah, again, Robertson is my #1 (no pun intended) pick any day of the week.
I think Torx tend to be used on things that are assembled by machines. It might be better to use Torx on things that are machine-assembled. In that case you have to care about the wear and tear on the screw drivers, and a Torx design might last a bit longer. With a square head there’s going to be a tendency for the driver to become rounded over time.
Also much harder to insert for a machine. A torx bit can be inserted every 60 degree turn, which means it has to turn a maximum of 30 degree in either direction to slot in. Robertson an philips need to be turned 90 degree, so 45 degrees in either direction.
No mention of Oval drive? As much as I normally hate security fasteners, I love those for being hilarious. At first glance it appears roughly circular, you’d be like “well this is a nail, or a rivet or something”. But no, actually you can unscrew it!
I have never seen this. I love it! It’s so simple! Why are these not everywhere?!
Right?! And yet AFAIK there is exactly one (now defunct) company who ever used them. I guess it’s time to be the change we want to see in the world 😈
Phillips exists to auto center and prevent over tightening. This auto centers but doesn’t prevent overtighteninf so you can theoretically torque the head right off. Otherwise it’s great.
and prevent over tightening
That’s a funny way of saying “it’s designed to strip out and become unusable as easily as possible”, but to each their own.
Oh it absolutly does that, which is why I hate it, but it was intended to so exactly that for a different reason.
Yeah, but unfortunately it has to protrude from the surface because the bit grabs the outside, which means you can also grab it with pliers. Not the best feature for a “security” fastener.
Omg you’re right!! I didn’t think about that at all… It’d be difficult but certainly doable.
You could reverse it so the socket is on the screw instead, but then it might be slightly more obvious that it is a screw. Also nobody makes those, to my knowledge.
Both Phillips and slot screws are fucking awful.
Yeah flat heads are terrible. They are always the reason if I get injured by my screwdriver.
Firstly, theres no geometry preventing the bit from slipping out. Secondly, greatly exacerbating the first, you need to press hard to prevent the bit from camming out, which increases the risk of it slipping out.
Both problems combined causes the bit to slip out with very high force. If you happen to be holding the workpiece, you can injure yourself real bad.
I fucking hate flatheads.
Flat heads exist because they were the only thing we could make for a long time.
Philips was made to strip heads.
Hexagon the the true master head. No camming out and If it starts to strip, you can smack it with hammer to return it to a working shape.
IMO the only two criteria that matter are:
- Is the screw going to slip out while I’m screwing it in or out.
- Do I have a screwdriver or screwdriver tip for that screw when I need it.
Criterion 1 eliminates the flat head and Philips points. They’re terrible because they slip out. The flat head not only slips out, it slips out in the most dangerous ways.
But, criterion 2 eliminates most of the other designs. Even if you’re Canadian, which means you do have a Robertson screw driver, you might not have the right Robertson bit. Unlike with Philips or slot, the size of the bit really matters.
Ikea does a great job of handling this situation because they mostly use hex screws and bolts (which are great), but they also supply the required driver with the parts (which is necessary because many people don’t have a tool to tighten hex bolts).
I have never approached a slotted screw with any less than absolute contempt.
My 100yo house has many. I have come to think of them as quaint.
Sewing machines are about 30% slotted grub screws by weight.
it’s missing the brand new BMWTM screw
Those just taste like boot leather
Every screw eventually becomes a slot screw if it pisses you off enough
